new year for trees

[tsubame]

Some of my friends in front of one of the great trees of Koya-san in Wakayama-ken. It is the center of the Shingon sect of Buddhism, and it's . . . amazing. There are more than 120 temples there, and a lovely and tranquil graveyard that takes several hours to walk through. It felt like another world, up there amongst the peaks.

I wanted to put up this picture because my incredibly-PC-calendar (it has Thich Nhat Hanh quotes!) lists Thursday as Tu B'Shevat (the Jewish New Year for Trees). According to teh interwebs this is the date when the trees begin to flower in Jereusalem. Other than that I know nothing of the significance of the holiday, but I think it a beautiful thing that there should be a new year devoted to trees.

Of course, since I believe Jewish holidays start on the previous night at sundown, I guess this holiday is already over . . .



The most amazing metisket proposed (at some point in the past) the idea that Jack might have killed Gil. This is not one that had occurred to me, though it is brilliantly twisted (which pretty much describes the series). ::ponders:: But would it work? I mean. What do we know so far? That Gil was killed by being stabbed in the back/slashed across the back. That supposedly it happened when he was trying to protect Jack (was this according to Jack?). That subsequent to dying he was supposed to become Glen's new body? Or was it before dying that he was supposed to become Glen's new body? Because if Gilbert were already dead, why would Jack object to him becoming Glen's body? But if he weren't dead, does that mean that he died (possibly defending Jack) later on?

What was it about him that made him suitable for Glen? Vincent supposedly interrupted the ceremony to move Glen into Gil and brought about the tragedy of Sabrier by opening the door to the Abyss, but was Gil dead at the time or not? Did Vincent then successfully change the past, and how much of it did he change? Did he change Gil from dead to alive? Or did he change something else, and how much of it?

We can conceivably extrapolate from Break's experience that when you change the past, something goes wrong. And it seems just as likely that, if Vincent changed the past, something must have gone wrong . . . was that the tragedy of Sablier? Or is what's going wrong, going wrong now?

Back to the question of what made Gilbert suitable to be Glen's body . . . the Baskervilles said that if they couldn't use Gil they'd have to wait 100 years for a suitable new body. Is that because Gil gets transported via the Abyss 100 years into the future? (I don't think this can be right, because then why would the Baskervilles still be trying to kill him? Not that all of them have, but Lily certainly wanted to. Then again, she might not have been aware of the distinction.) Or is the potential new body someone else?

Like, say, Oz? Which would explain why his very existence is a sin. But would not explain why the Baskervilles dropped him into the Abyss-- if he were a potential new body for Glen, surely they would want to keep him around. Of course, now there's the extra whammy that Oz might not be who he thinks he is . . . but then why does he look so much like Jack?

One private theory I had when Jack first showed up was that Oz was Jack (born in the future, gets transported back in time and changes his name, etc), but I think I've pretty much abandoned that theory.

I admit to being somewhat confused about the chains. Supposedly Glen held five chains? But four of these are now in the possession of the 4 big ducal families. We know that Gil has one and Oz's father Zai has one. Glen apparently also still has Jabberwock? Or was that just Oz meeting him in the past when he had Jabberwock, since current-time Glen is sealed? Does that mean both Gil and Zai need to die before Glen can return, or does it just mean that Glen would want them killed so he can take back what was once his? Since I don't remember any way to free a chain from a contractor, barring death of the chain or death of the contractor . . .

I wonder what the time limit on a legal contractor is . . . Break and Sharon have stopped aging, apparently, and Break seems to be coming up on his due date (his body is failing). But is it much longer than that of an illegal contractor? Or is it a matter of the power used, or is it dependent on other factors? Why is Oz's going so fast? Is that because it's with B-rabbit and not some other chain? And if the power a legal contractor can use is limited, how effing scary must the full Mad Hatter chain be?

And is Oz also frozen at his current age like Break and Sharon are? How about Gil and Zai? Barma also seems to be age-frozen, and the Dodo was one of Glen's chains . . . but the Owl is presumably bound to Duchess Rainsworth, and she still ages normally, no?

. . . that was only supposed to be one paragraph of questions. ::blinks:: What happened? Urk. I think I should go to bed . . .

NEW CHAPTER OUT! ::totally boogies:: Right, forgot about bed. And now I have even more questions! Except I think I'll let them ferment in my head for a day or two before I try getting them down.

But oh gods poor Elliot. So much for his being mostly angst-free. Time for him to join the rest of the cast in the land of trauma-induced insanity!

Comments

[numi-nami.livejournal.com]

Welcome to the fandom!

As far as I can recall, Gilbert didn't die; he was only mortally wounded by supposedly taking a fall for Jack (in his own words). I think Glen had made take Gil's body before the Tragedy, and that he was still alive - and uninjured - by then.

Is that because Gil gets transported via the Abyss 100 years into the future?

I think it's because of PH mythos: Souls get reincarnated every 100 years. It might be easier then to hunt for Glen's new body.

Oz is...idk. Remember the chapter where Oscar recalls that Zai took him away and returned just after he was born?

re: contractors: if you've read 57, you'll see Elliot's seal is at 9:00. we've a theory that he got HD at Sablier when he took Leo in as a servant, so he roughly had two years as an illegal contractor. Idk.

Barma is frozen at his age (he's 67). I think Owl is bound to Sharon's mother, Shelly, who is suspiciously absent from the series.

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

Thankee! Glad to be here. :-D

I'm not sure about what exactly happened to Gilbert-- I believe the scanlations I was reading at that time were not the best. Or the progression thereof. Do you mean that Gilbert being wounded happened after/during the Tragedy, rather than before? But I seem to recall that it was only after Gil had been hurt that he became known as Glen's vessel . . . unless of course my memory is off, seeing as it's not too reliable to begin with.

idk = I don't know?

I do indeed remember that Oz was taken away by Zai soon after he was born, but that hasn't been addressed at all yet . . . just one more addition to the mystery of Oz.

I imagine when Owl's contractor does show up it's just going to break my brain MORE. . . . I'm looking forward to it.

[gommyommy.livejournal.com]

Hi there! Welcome to the land of much sleep-deprived speculation.

I'm only gonna try to answers the questions I am mostly sure of the answer to.

I don't think Vincent changed the past…changing the past is the promise that chains make to talk people into making illegal contracts. Vincent's goal was just to disrupt the ceremony transferring Raven into Gil.

Each of the five families has possession of one of the black-winged chains. I have always assumed it was Duchess Sheryl Rainsworth (the old one in the wheelchair) who had contracted with Owl, but we have no proof of that. Barma has Dodo, Baskerville has Jabberwocky, Vessalius has Gryphon and Nightray has Raven.

My understanding is that Glen could return a)once all the sealing stones are smashed, releasing his soul and b) once he has a new body.

Not all legal contracts prevent aging. As far as we know, no illegal contracts prevent aging. People who appear to not be aging are: Break, Sharon, Rufus Barma, Echo. Echo might be a special case since she is apparently a Baskerville, and their bodies are more chain-like.

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

Sleep deprived speculation, huzzah! I mean, where do you think all these questions came from in the first place? ;-)

That's true, Vincent was never an illegal contractor, he opened the door to the Abyss (one wonders where these doors come from, and how the current major noble families came by theirs. If the doors are stuck in a single place, or if they com with the associated chain . . . see what I mean about more questions? @_@). And Vincent certainly disrupted the ceremony, so he accomplished his goal; I wonder, though, why he then brought Gil through the Abyss, and how he got them both out again. Pretty precocious for a 9-year-old (ish? Given that his age is one year younger than Gilbert's, and Gilbert isn't really sure of his age . . .).

So really Glen's return is dependent on two separate factors. However, the question of who is his new body hasn't really been addressed yet, am I correct?

Technically all of the Baskervilles fall into the "not aging" camp, since they all look the same as they did 100 years ago, and seem to have been around the entire time. I still wonder where the Baskervilles get their chains, and where the Pandora people get theirs (do they have to enter through one of the doors to the Abyss, as Gil did to get Raven? That would make sense, as I believe every person with a chain who we've encountered thus far was associated with one of the noble houses who posses a door. This would also give an excellent reason why they can easily maintain their power and prestige . . . they're the only ones who can get ahold of the powers of the Abyss in a controlled and balanced way, illegal contractors being terribly unstable).

One question answered, five more arise. @_@ I guess that's what I love about the series, it never stops with the mysteries to ponder. Although now that I've caught up, it's going to be torture waiting from month to month for new releases . . .

[gommyommy.livejournal.com]

Yes I don't think we know who Glen's new body is. The ceremony to transfer it to Gilbert didn't work. Perhaps the body is the the thing that is in suspended animation in those sealing stones? I had thought it was Glen's soul. But Glen's soul (or at least, his previous soul, or partial soul, if there can be such a thing) is now inside Leo, apparently (otherwise Glen's previous body, Humpty Dumpty wouldn't be trying to protect him). I am getting all mixed up now about the difference between 'body' and 'soul.' One of these day I'll have to look at the actual terms used in Japanese and see if I can come to a better understanding.

As for the Baskervilles and aging: Near the end of the Sablier arc, Lily comes out of Abyss and has been gone 100 yrs. Lottie said that she herself had only come out of Abyss 4 yrs ago. So that's probably why those two haven't aged. Don't know about the others.

The Baskervilles' bodies appear to be more like chains than humans, which is why Mad Hatter was able to turn Fang into dust. Yet they still appear to have chains of their own. I'm not sure how that works, but it must be something different from the official Pandora method.

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

Well, we do know that what's in the sealing stones is actually pieces of Jack's body, which are being used to hold the seal on Glen's soul.

eww mummified pieces of Jack . . .

I'm also waiting for confirmation of the Leo-holds-Glen's-sealed-soul, though it does fit in with the clues we've received thus far. Of course, that does open new roads of speculation-- does that mean that Glen doesn't need a vessel since he already has one? Will he attempt to claim all his old chains once again? Does Leo have Jabberwocky?

Ahh, I remember that about Lottie now, though I don't recall it about Lily. I think I need to go back and re-read the series again. For some reason I was under the impression that they had been sitting around waiting for the 100 years since the Tragedy.

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

It's a bit amusing to me that everyone made this big deal about Oz returning from the Abyss, but actually it seems to be quite common. I mean, they're positively hopping out of the woodwork now.

[ryoura.livejournal.com]

Gyaaaah, I have so many crazy theories for Pandy Hearts I think I'm going to need to write a big long journal before I explode @-@

I never thought of Jack hurting Gil... Oooo that ties in with the idea that he may have killed Alice! @-@ Jacky boy, what could you be up to?
I also sort of wonder if Glen was one of the followers of 'Yura's religion, and that the Tragedy was a way for him to see Lacie again, since Jack mentioned that Glen thought Abyss was a place of bright lights. It seems to be, too, because that's where the Baskervilles got their immortality, from those bright lights. But then was the Abyss Oz visited really a false Abyss? And what role does 'Will of Abyss play in all of it?

I digress!
I personally think Oz's sin has something to do with what's happening to him now (mooore theories XD;), and that maybe Reo is either Glen reborn or his next vessel? When the HeadHunter events started I pretty much started thinking that Eliot's nightmares were connected to those rather than the Tragedy, and I still think that, but maybe being connected to Humpty Dumpty let's him see some of Glen's memories? Oz has seen some of Alice's, after all (OR HAS HE? *THEORIES*)

As for Chains breaking contracts, if Gil or Zai's Blood Seal Mirror's were broken, then their contracts with Raven and Gryphon would be gone, which I assume will happen (which sucks; Gil, use Raven more before he get's taken! ... Unless you're still Glen's vessel somehow?)

SO MANY QUESTIONS!
I should stay up and rant, but I have work in 4 hours XDD CURSE YOU PANDY HEARTS! _ilu

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

::laughs:: I know how you feel . . . I meant to just write down a few questions, but ended up with this huge long list covering everything I wasn't sure about, and touching on more than a few things I was speculating about.

I . . . don't really think that Jack killed Alice; I think that Vincent is a much more likely suspect, given that he hated Alice and is always playing with scissors (the apparent murder weapon). But then, gods know this series has managed to surprise me before.

::interested:: I don't recall much about the "bright lights," beyond Jack saying that of the Abyss. Where does it mention that the Baskervilles thus got their immortality? For some reason I thought it might be associated with their chains, or with Glen (who doesn't seem to play by quite the same rules as everyone else). Presumably Glen has at least been somewhat into the Abyss; the man had five chains, after all, and as I recall when Gil got Raven there was nary a bright light to be seen, and a whole lot of dark.

It remains to be seen if Reo has more to do with what's going on beyond his association with Elliot and the orphanage (although all this is linked in with the present storyline it otherwise doesn't seem linked directly to the business with Glen). Although I admit that possibility has occurred to me before, and remains in the back of my thoughts somewhere. But I don't think Humpty Dumpty has any particular association with Glen, so I don't think it would have any connection to Glen's memories, unless mere traffic with the creatures of the Abyss can give access to those.

::mutter:: Somebody's gonna have to break Break's Seal Mirror before the man dies. I mean, Break not having his huge Awesome Power would suck, but not having Break would suck more.

[ryoura.livejournal.com]

That always seems to be the case XDD I think I should just give up; I can't write out one theory without having to explain a dozen others, haha XDD

Vincent is a big maybe on that one; it wouldn't surprise me XDD But that assumption was more based on the way Jack acts around Alice and with the most recent developments with Alice and her 'pointless' comments. Still, it's one of the iffy ones, more that it popped to mind and stuck XDD

The bright lights thing was mentioned in Chapter 51 :3 Lily said she saw a golden light while wandering through the woods, and went on to explain that members of the Baskerville house are people who have accepted the particles of light and become 'Messengers Chosen by Abyss'. Lotti said 'Those who are chosen by the light are said to have an acceptional affinity with the Abyss' and are drawn to Glen/made loyal to Glen. I would imagine it was those lights that made them immortal, as it was obviously something from Abyss that made them that way since Mad Hatter is the only one that can destroy them.

Well if Humpty Dumpty are past Glen vessels then there is always the possibility they could be connected to his memories; we know they're all connected to each other in some way, or all contractors wouldn't feel it's power in use no matter which contractor was using it at the time (i.e. Phillipe was in pain when other Children were using Humpty Dumpty).
But we haven't been told exactly how memories work in the PH world... We DO know that, apparently, everything that has ever happened in history has been written into Abyss, which was why Yura wanted to recreate the Tragedy to force Abyss to open, but that's not to say that those memories can be picked up by just anyone... God! So confusing! XDD

I think the fact Reo wrote 'Lacie' is was clenched it for me, to be honest XDD Though like someone else said, he could always be connected to Lacie herself (who invented the song first), but since we don't know much about her other than the fact she was sacrificed to Abyss and was important to Glen, I sort of avoid her; too easy to make up stuff for her when she's pretty much a blank canvas XDD

Ahhh, but that would be far too smart! XDD Though I suppose Break would never let them do that... He wanted a reason to live and his reason became fulfilling WoA's wish, and Mad Hatter is probably a means to that end. Then again, he really didn't care about WoA when he thought he was gonna die...
Smash it Break! The series needs you! D8

(SOrry for the uber long-ness! XD; Got carried away ^^;)

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

No, no, I don't mind uber-longness! Thank you for the information, I really appreciate it. Anything that helps to dispel my confusion and get me more up-to-speed with what's going on is welcome. Especially because I'm confused or have forgotten so many things . . .

Yura's purpose in recreating the tragedy I wasn't exactly clear on, since Yura said a bunch of stuff and changed the story a few times . . . is it that history and the memories that people want?

::nods:: The bit about composing Lacie and the connection with Humpty Dumpty seem to be the big arguments for Reo being Glen. Of course it's possible that he might have just heard the tune somewhere, but I guess we won't really know until the manga-ka shows us definitively where Glen's soul is.

::sniffle:: Don't die, Break! Even if you can't fight, you're still useful in many other ways! It was so traumatic to me when I thought Break was going to die, I can't tell you how relieved I was when Gil charged in and saved the day. Best. Gil. Flying kick. EVAR.

[8stef.livejournal.com]

I think PH made us think a lot XD
And yes! Elliot really needs like a million of hugs, his life it's pretty messed up T-T
I admit that at first I thought about Oz being Jack but it seem far more complicated than that @_@

Oh! just to clear some things...
» Gil was never killed, he was injured by Glen protecting Jack but he didn't die, he was only hurt therefore Vincent didn't change the past or anything, he just stopped the ceremony and by doing it Glen soul had to wander 100 years to reincarnate, it has been said once that a soul can return to the world after 100 years.
» Stop aging is a side-effect from legal contracts so Oz it's not frozen at is age like Break or Sharon, Oz seal is going faster because it's an illegal contract and I remember that in one chapter they said that B-rabbit was a bit special by draining a lot of energy of its contractor, no idea.... but illegal contracts seem to long less than legal ones.

[dracilla112.livejournal.com]

Not all legal contracts stop aging, only some, and Break said it put more strain on the body. His body is failing more than it should be because he has had an illegal contract before MH. Not to mention MH is a very powerful chain, so must be tiring to use (seen this with Gil aswell.) However they deffinately have longer lives than illegal contractors. Sharon has already lasted 10 years with her contrat to Eques, so yeah, they live longer xD

Oh, and I think Cheryl posesses the Owl, not Shelley :)

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

Break seems to be much better about using Mad Hatter than Gil does, since Break's fought with Mad Hatter a bunch of times, but the first time Gil used Raven it knocked him flat on his back for a while. ;-) Of course, perhaps getting out of the Abyss requires more energy than killing folks, who knows.

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

Good point about Vincent; anyway since he wasn't a contractor he couldn't have changed the past . . .

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

::amused:: Even if illegal contracts did stop aging, I guess no one would know because illegal contractors don't seem to last all that long . . .

[giddymorose.livejournal.com]

That is a stunning photograph. I love trees &hearts

You should put up more photos! *enthusiastic nod*

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

::amused:: I thank you, although technically I was not the one to take the photo. Still, with such a subject, no way it could not have been magnificent. The trees there are so majestic . . .

I will continue to put up photos; I'm glad you're enjoying them. :-D

[subsiding-leaf.livejournal.com]

Gaaah! Must avoid reading spoiler-filled comments!^^;;;;

I haven't gotten a chance to read it yet but it sounds like great fun. I will try to get around to it soon.

The tree is beautiful.

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

::coughs:: Er, sorry about that. Aye, comments are full of spoilers, and the post likewise, though I doubt any of it makes sense it might stick in your mind in an unfortunate way. But I do highly recommend this series! I think you might like it. It's extremely messed up, but has surprisingly low people-sit-around-angsting levels for all that. Well, I mean, Raven angsts a lot, but that's because he's Raven, he wouldn't know what to do with himself if he weren't constantly worrying about something.

The tree was amazing, and it's far from being the only one of its kind there. Because the area is sacred, the trees are not permitted to be cut. Except perhaps to build temples, though I'm not even sure about that.

[metisket.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD, THE NEW CHAPTER.

So like...Elliot is apparently Glen's soul reborn, which at least explains the nightmares. And Leo. Is a FREAKING CHAIN? Is that right? "Say my name"?

O_o

They win, I take it all back, they WIN THE MESSED UP CONTEST.

There is still a whole lot about that that needs to be addressed, though. AAARRRRRGGGHHH.

Also, hey, if souls get reborn every 100 years, and the Jack in Oz's head is just a fragment of the entire Jack...then couldn't Oz have the rest of Jack's soul?

Which of course doesn't explain what Zai got up to with him when he was a baby, or why he's an abomination, or etc. What the hell, Zai, what the hell.

For the record, I don't think it's LIKELY that Jack was the one who stabbed Gil. It seems more likely that Gil threw himself between Jack and Glen or something. But it would be hilariously twisted if true, and therefore I threw it out there. :D

I'd love more explanation of Alice, as well. Because Alice was always two people in one body, and I assume that our Alice, black Alice, wasn't the one who taunted Vincent, for example. That seems more like something white Alice would do.

MASS CONFUSION. I freaking love this series. And have no idea what the hell is going on. XD

[dracilla112.livejournal.com]

someone cleared this up for me: Leo does not say "say 'my' name"....he says: "say 'the' name" but the 'the' got lost in translation or was ambiguous or something.

[metisket.livejournal.com]

Ahh, okay. That makes more sense, thank you. :)

[grey-damaskena.livejournal.com]

Elliot and Leo have got to be pretty incredibly messed up, either way. The fallout from this is going to be huge, I can't see any way it wouldn't be. But a lot is vague at this point, so we're going to need another chapter to clear things up.

I have pondered the theory that perhaps Oz is Jack's reincarnation, and it seems a distinct possibility considering how much they look alike (yes, a reincarnation doesn't have to look like the original, but this is a manga we're dealing with, after all. Unless it's just trying to confuse us into thinking that!). But yeah, if that's the case, I'm confused with how Oz could at the same time house separate pieces of Jack's soul/be inhabited or controlled by Jack.

And yeah, meanwhile the mystery that is Oz deepens. Since we haven't gotten any information on what his "sin" is, and now there's the additional what-did-Zai-do hanging around in the eaves.

::laughs:: re: Jack stabbing Gil, I remember that you said it wasn't very likely, but that speculation was the thing that got me started on all this craziness. And you're right, it would be way, way twisted.

Alice remains mysterious, and I agree that it would be nice to get more of her. Although from what we've seen of her past she seems mostly to have been a tool/victim rather than an active player, which makes me somewhat less intrigued by her. It doesn't seem like there was much she could do to change her fate or have anything otherwise to do with what happened to Sablier. Actually I rather prefer her now to who she was then-- I like the active, I-can-take-on-the-world-and-WILL Alice the best. I have a feeling this is kinda like my thing for Rukia in Bleach-- which is to say, I like her best when she's kicking Ichigo in the face (or other body parts, that is permissible).

I like Alice best when she's terrorizing those around her and making them submit to her implacable will!

. . . yeah, I have no idea what's going on either. But it's a heckuva ride.